27489
From: Akira, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
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This seems like a better fit than the religion board, but could go either way I guess. If anyone figures out the Aquarius and the vernal equinox clues, please share. "In Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi (savior of the world) Da Vinci depicts Christ in his true representation: as that of the sacred pattern of death and resurrection, or as the pattern of transformation. In this particular painting Christ is shown as the resurrection but also as the Greek Ganymede and the constellation Aquarius (the water pourer). Christ is depicted holding in his left hand a globus cruciger. Normally a globus cruciger is a globe with a cross on top of it, but this one seems to be missing the cross, or is it? If one were to look closer at the globe in this painting you will see three dots within the globe. These three dots represent an asterism, or a collection of constellations in the sky, in what we call the summer triangle. Within the summer triangle rest the constellations; Cygnus the swan, which is comprised of the Northern Cross; Aquila, the eagle, and Lyra, the harp. Therefore, the cross lies within the globe in the form of the Northern Cross. In this painting, the star closest to the hand of Christ would be a where Aquila is in this asterism. This asterism is rising to the north of the rising sun on the morning of the winter solstice (the resurrection of the sun). Da Vinci left a hint in his painting that this is the correct interpretation interpretation of the three dots. The hint is in Christ’s clothing. First off, the fold in his robe as it passes behind the globe, and the three dots, happens to coincide with the milky way as it passes through the summer triangle. Within the globe he has reversed the summer triangle as one would naturally see the reverse image in a solid glass sphere, but it is the only thing he reversed within the globe. The second hint is that the Northern Cross in the globe, as it would rest within the depiction of the summer triangle, corresponds to the same angle of the belting across the chest of Christ. On this belting is a woven pattern representing unity and eternity in Islamic design. Not only is Da Vinci depicting Jesus but he’s also depicting a much deeper truth here in depicting Jesus as the mythological figure, Ganymede, or the constellation Aquarius. To the Greeks, the constellation Aquarius represented Ganymede the wine pourer; the mortal that the God’s stole away to themselves, for the love of his pure and beautiful mind, to dwell among them on Olympus. Zeus sent an eagle (the constellation Aquila) to grab Ganymede (the constellation Aquarius) from the earth. So if we were to watch the rising sun on the eastern horizon and the constellations that surround it from the winter solstice to the vernal equinox, we would see Zeus’s Eagle rising to the north of the sun parallel with the sun on the winter solstice. As we head toward the vernal equinox in March we see the eagle lifting Ganymede up into the sky and across the rising sun. Where Ganymede, or Jesus, temporarily becomes the sun, illuminating the world with his knowledge and Devine light. Da Vinci used this symbolism in the painting to represent the resurrection of the sun as this time also coincides with the rebirth of the human psyche within transformation. The really special hint involving Aquarius and the vernal equinox, left to us by Da Vinci, in this painting is… I’ll leave that to the readers to figure out. I can’t have all the fun. This hint is so subtle yet so obvious. And so we see Christ as Da Vinci did, as the yearly pattern of death and resurrection in the human psyche. Some may say, “Well that’s going too far with this interpretation,” some may say that it is outrageous that I would link something like what we currently call alien abduction with such a painting, but this is not the only painting where Da Vinci depicts Jesus as the constellation Aquarius or Ganymede. The Last Supper is another one; -Matthew Roberts Two or 3 months ago I had a dream in which a woman tells me I'm going to experience a "rebirth". And then I stumbled on this book, which I'm currently in the middle of... from amazon: "In 2015, Matthew Roberts was a US Naval service member stationed onboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt. The events that transpired during their 2015 workup cycle brought us the first-ever declassified footage of unidentified aerial phenomenon (UAP)and the New York Times article titled: “Glowing Auras and ‘Black Money’: The Pentagon’s Mysterious U.F.O. Program.” Subsequently, he transferred to the Office of Naval Intelligence in Washington D.C. where he began to have frequent, and often intense, personal experiences with the phenomenon. He discovered through a long, painful, and terrifying journey that the truth of the phenomenon has deep and profound implications for the future of the human race. It may seem like a bold statement but the ultimate universal truth that underlies the phenomenon is captured in the simple yet eloquent words of Mark Twain, “The two most important days in your life are the day you are born, and the day you find out why.”" |
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27507
From: citizen cam, [DNS_Address]
Subject: I had the three dots from abduction experience
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Interesting, thank you. I just ordered the book. I am an ex-alien abductee who is now a Catholic. I had the triangle array appear on my left calf in July 1996 after waking up three mornings in a row at 4:00 am for no reason. I underwent hypnotic regression with Yvonne Smith and had an "alien abduction" memory of that event. I later learned about 3:00 am being known as the Devil's Hour, because it is the inverse of Christ's death on the cross at 3:00 pm. I once asked a group of abductees why I woke up at 4:00 am, and they pointed out that aliens don't do daylight saving time! |
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27508
From: Akira, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: I had the three dots from abduction experience
| The author is not christian. Hope you're not disappointed. |
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27492
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
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Akira, I fell into the energy of this piece so quickly, I only just now noted the context of the source you took it from! lol Okay... While I feel no interest in discerning or "guessing at" any specific angle of interpretation of the Aquarian or Vernal Equinox symbology many receive, in this piece, including the author, or what any "correct answer" as per that context might be, to their sensing...I do genuinely appreciate seeing Da Vinci's genius in this way brought forward here! ;) There are as many contexts of interpretation of *every living-symbol gem he wove into each of his works of art* as there are individuals who perceive it -- and for me, that reveals the organic power of Spirit fueling his creative/imaginative inspiration... ;) The reason this defines him to me as such a deep Master is that, in my spiritual view, the phenomenon we call *Initiation* (ref'ing your source title), or expansion in spiritual self-realization, is a constant, ongoing process happening with everyone in their own perfect timing -- to greater and lesser *observable* extents & degrees, certainly, at any given point in their journey... Obviously huge life events such as those I saw mentioned in your source, apparent breakthroughs of knowledge into previously- hidden situations, experiences that take one entirely out of all previous frames of reference across the board, often precede... And quiet moments in which several stream-of-consciousness awarenesses, sometimes catalyzed by crisis or joy, all synergize together and boom, you're Somewhere Else. I'm sure you can relate to these things... ;) Initiation is defined somewhat differently to me... ;) My point is that the entire realm of what we call *symbolism* is a living, breathing multidimensional language that serves as a springboard for literally *all* spiritual/energetic truth (& we might say, Reality, but that's a big saying...lol) in each person's process...and Da Vinci's unique genius was his capacity for weaving *so many different levels and layers OF these symbolic truths* into his art...! In other words...there is no "right answer"... There is what each being perceiving it sees/feels/knows as speaking truth to them, in the exact ways it does, and each one is Correct...because it serves/feeds/nurtures/expands each one's own unique process, as per that person's receptors at that moment in time*... Gotta stop now but will find some other interpretations of Salvator Mundi, as well as The Last Supper, to offer some examples... Thanks for this... ;) |
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27494
From: Akira, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
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“There are as many contexts of interpretation of *every living-symbol gem he wove into each of his works of art* as there are individuals who perceive it -- and for me, that reveals the organic power of Spirit fueling his creative/imaginative inspiration... ;) “ Obviously anyone taking in a piece of artwork is going to experience it subjectively through their own awareness, perceptions and experience. What interests me here is what DaVinci’s intentions were in creating these works. The author is positing his theory about what DaVinci’s intentions were and he’s offering evidence for it. His ideas might not even be original, but they are compelling to me & I'd like to delve into them more deeply. He seems to be pretty sure of himself and he might be right, but I’ll likely never know. |
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27497
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Fabulous! Delve on!
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...in your own perfect ways of doing so, by all means. First and foremost. But if I might just add, to further clarify where I'm coming from: Your saying that "He seems to be pretty sure of himself and he might be right, but I’ll likely never know."...tells me that you're seeing Da Vinci as having had only single meanings for symbols, or one specific theme of symbology for single or groupings of them, for the symbolic elements in his artworks. Your pointing up how "obviously, everything's subjective" in such a casual way gives me the impression you're missing my point, that his mastery lay in his capacity to speak in the language of symbol TO those *many subjective contexts/capacities for understanding* who would absorb the energies of everything he created... By weaving many levels of symbology into them...as opposed to, say, putting in one layer of meaning hoping some most-gifted, most- worthy Someone would one day guess the right answer... They're all right answers to me, as per what I feel to have been his intention... ;) And I'm not saying any of this from a critical space, of your context at all! Only meaning to support that your finding meaning/resonance in that particular angle that you did means that it holds great value and meaning for your particular path...in ways far more important and beyond right or wrong according to anything else... |
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27500
From: Akira, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Fabulous! Delve on!
| Well thanks for your support! |
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27495
From: ryan, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
| i suggest you read gurdjieff's writings on art...especially objective art, as supposed to subjective art... |
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27498
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
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Wait........ What? *sigh* Okay, ryan. This might be where me and Gurdjieff finally have our day...after all these years...lol... Yes, please. Don't have it to run it down, but if you would be so kind as to present what, to him, "objective art" is comprised of, I would very much like to know exactly how he...does that... ;) Thanks in advance... |
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27501
From: ryan, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
| i'll try to find his words, but basically, objective art is art that produces the same reaction in anyone who views or hears or feels it...g tells of visiting remote monasteries where music was sung or played which evoked the same emotional response to everyone who heard it...or of buildings the also evoked the same response...he said originally all art was used as a means of transmitting information...truth...but over the millennia ego got involved and hence the overwhelming preponderance of subjective art we have today... |
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27551
From: kay.so.or, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
| hmmm I have stated in the past, that I prefer art done by someone who might not be as talented/gifted/skilled/etc as some who are, because you get to see the struggle, you get a feeling of 'who' this artist is and what they are trying to portray in their work from an 'inner' focus, to express that, not to create something that would be to make money off of or to make something that just 'pleases/entices' others for reasons other then appreciating the artist and his/her expressions/efforts. I came to this conclusion (for myself) as I am an artist and having taught others, and had a gallery too, and seeing the difference between the polished and the 'perhaps' rougher and simpler works. thus I view all art of any kind through 'my eyes', looking for 'them, their message, their struggle, and more. .... |
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27503
From: ryan, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
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Episode 17 - Chapters 29-30 29 (Part 2): The fruits of former civilizations and the blossums of the contemporary 30 (Part 1): Art Episode 18 - Chapter 30 30 (Part 2): Art Episode 19 - Chapter 30 30 (Part 3): Art Episode 20 - Chapters 30-31 30 (Part 4): Art 31 (Part 1): The sixth and last sojourn of Beelzebub on the planet Earth |
27504
From: ryan, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
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Gurdjieff said the Objective Art was created when objects were infused with Sacred Energies by the creators which then had the effect of creating Kundalini Energy, a raising of Spiritual Energy, a throwing out of Energy Blockages and Bad Emotions, in those who came near or viewed the Art Objects. Thus he mentioned The Taj Mahal, The Alhambra, the Pyramids and the Sphinx. ....... Gurdjieff's Definition of Objective Art Perhaps the best way to explain what Georges Ivanovich Gurdjieff (ca. 1866 - 1949) meant by objective art is to use his own words. The following is an extract taken a book by from P. D. Ouspensky entitled In Search of the Miraculous (pages 295-297), the speaker is Gurdjieff: You must first of all remember that there are two kinds of art, one quite different from the other -- objective art and subjective art. All that you know, all that you call art, is subjective art, that is, something that I do not call art at all because it is only objective art that I call art. To define what I call objective art is difficult first of all because you ascribe to subjective art the characteristics of objective art, and secondly because when you happen upon objective works of art you take them as being on the same level as subjective works of art. I will try to make my idea clear. You say -- an artist creates. I say this only in connection with objective art. In relation to subjective art: that with him 'it is created.' You do not differentiate between these, but this is where the whole difference lies. Further you ascribe to subjective art an invariable action, that is you expect works of subjective art to have the same reaction on everybody. You think, for instance, that a funeral march should provoke in everyone sad and solemn thoughts and that any dance music, a komarinsky for instance, will provoke happy thoughts. But in actual fact this is not so at all. Everything depends upon association. If on a day that a great misfortune happens to me I hear some lively tune for the first time this tune will evoke in me sad and oppressive thoughts for my whole life afterwards. And if on a day when I am particularly happy I hear a sad tune, this tune will always evoke happy thoughts. And so with everything else. The difference between objective art and subjective art is that in objective art the artist really does 'create,' that is he makes what he intended, he puts into his work whatever ideas and feelings he wants to put into it. And the action of this work upon men is absolutely definite; they will, of course each according to his own level, receive the same ideas and the same feelings that the artist wanted to transmit to them. There can be nothing accidental either in the creation or in the impressions of objective art. In subjective art everything is accidental. The artist, as I have already said, does not create; with him 'it creates itself.' This means that he is in the power of ideas, thoughts, and moods which he himself does not understand and over which he has no control whatever. They rule him and they express themselves in one form or another. And when they have accidentally taken this or that form, this form just as accidentally produces on man this or that action according to his mood, tastes, habits, the nature of the hypnosis under which he lives, and so on. There is nothing invariable; nothing is definite here. In objective art there is nothing indefinite. ... I measure the merit of art by its consciousness and you measure it by its unconsciousness . We cannot understand one another. A work of objective art ought to be a book as you call it; the only difference is that the artist transmits his ideas not directly through words or signs or hieroglyphs, but through certain feelings which he excites consciously and in an orderly way, knowing what he is doing and why he does it. ... principles must be understood. If you grasp the principles you will be able to answer these questions yourselves. But if you do not grasp them nothing that I may say will explain anything to you. It was exactly about this that it was said -- they will see with their eyes and will not perceive, they will hear with their ears and will not understand. I will cite you one example only -- music. Objective music is all based on inner octaves. And it can obtain not only definite psychological results but definite physical results. There can be such music as would freeze water. There can be such music as would kill a man instantaneously. The Biblical legend of the destruction of the walls of Jericho by music is precisely a legend of objective music. Plain music, no matter of what kind, will not destroy walls, but objective music indeed can do so. And not only can it destroy but it can also build up. In the legend of Orpheus there are hints of objective music, for Orpheus used to impart knowledge by music. Snake charmers' music in the East is an approach to objective music, of course very primitive. Very often it is simply one note which is long drawn out, rising and falling only very little; but in this single note 'inner octaves' are going on all the time and melodies of 'inner octaves' which are inaudible to the ears but felt by the emotional center. And the snake hears this music or, more strictly speaking, he feels it, and he obeys it. The same music, only a little more complicated, and men would obey it. So you see that art is not merely a language but something much bigger. And if you connect what I have just said with what I said earlier about the different levels of man's being, you will understand what is said about art. Mechanical humanity consists of men number one, number two, and number three and they, of course, can have subjective art only. Objective art requires at least flashes of objective consciousness; in order to understand these flashes properly and to make proper use of them a great inner unity is necessary and a great control of oneself. |
27506
From: shadow , [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
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Ah, I seeeee... This gives a good sense of it but will check out your other links too... Thanks ryan! Back soonest... ;) |
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27509
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Okay! Up to the top of the page, please, to continue this... ;)
| ^..^ |
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27502
From: Akira, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
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"...evoked the same emotional response to everyone who heard it...or of buildings the also evoked the same response..." How was that proven? |
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27552
From: ryan, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Da Vinci’s Salvator Mundi
| personal experience... |
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27496
From: Akira, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Nothing is objective!
| lol, sounds fishy, but I'll check it out. Got any links? |
27499
From: Akira, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Nothing is objective!
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What particularly attracts me is Matthew Roberts' suggestion that DaVinci was expressing Jesus as an allegory for human transformation, or possibly as evolution as you frequently use the term. I know that's not an original interpretation of the Christ story, but it deeply rings true to me. There might have been a Jesus, but the man and the mythology are 2 very different things, imo. So yes, I am curious about Gurdjieff's view on art, being an artist myself, but I'm also wondering if he has any thoughts on the other thing. |
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From: ryan, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Nothing is objective!
| g thought highly of davinci...there is sacred geometry in his paintings...g said that judas was the highest disciple, and was chosen specifically to take on the task of betraying jesus...something about a need to stall a bit for time to finish preparations, which is why judas set up the "betrayal" to happen at a later time... |
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27490
From: Akira, [DNS_Address]
Subject: The Last Supper
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"This is an interpretation of the Last Supper you won’t find anywhere else because I’ve never heard anyone explain it this way. Some have come close but they’re a bit off. It may be helpful to pull up images of these paintings as well as star charts as you read the descriptions. The 13 people around the table represent the 13 constellations on the ecliptic path of the sun. We can start with Jesus in the center of the Last Supper as the constellation Aquarius. To his right there is a large V-shaped gap. This is also a hint that we can see matches the constellation Pisces which is to the right of Aquarius just as depicted in the painting. Pisces is represented by two fish jumping out of the water in opposing directions forming the V. Next to Pisces is Aries followed by Taurus, then Gemini as the twins with the two hands held up, followed by Cancer, then Leo at the end of the table. To the left of Jesus, or Aquarius, we have Capricorn pointing upward above just as the horn of Capricorn points up with its horn but also a hint that all of this is in the sky. Next are Sagittarius, Ophiuchus, Scorpio, Libra and finally Virgo at the end of the table. The gestures, body language, and clothing of the people around the table hold the shapes of these constellations. I read an account of Da Vinci as he painted the Last Supper in that he was very concerned with the placement and gestures of the apostles. He would sometimes only come in and paint a hand in a day. The reason he did this is because he intended to depict Jesus as Aquarius or Ganymede and he didn’t want to be seen using star charts to complete the painting. I think in his time such a thing could have caused him a great deal of trouble. But he really wanted to make sure his true depiction of the story of Christ came through in the painting. He depicts Christ in his true form as an allegory for transformation; Christ as Ganymede, the one who had gone through transformation and who the gods stole away to themselves through the process of initiation. There are four groupings of constellations that are separated by either an equinox or a solstice representing the four seasons. These constellations are placed next to each other in the painting, as they are in the night sky. Above the gap between Jesus and the person to his right, there is a square lantern hanging on the wall as another hint at the true interpretation of the painting; representing the square of Pegasus. My other favorite painting plays into these same ideas but also more plainly plays into the initiation aspect. Adoration of the Magi was never finished by Da Vinci. People can say what they want about the historical reasons for this but I happen to know this was by design. He never intended to finish it. Insofar as Da Vinci was concerned it was finished. This painting is much more complex than Salvator Mundi as it depicts the entire cycle of initiation. The painting, if taken at face value, is a representation of the three kings that have come bearing gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh for Christ; the son of God. It depicts the birth of the sun; which we have learned has a much deeper meaning. Christ is seated on his mother Mary’s lap. It’s such a beautiful painting. Unlike a photograph, a painting cannot include anything accidental. Everything in the painting has meaning. It could be argued that this is also a representation of the Book of Revelation which is why he never finished it; as this is an ongoing process; it’s never finished. Let’s start with some of the subtle yet very telling hidden symbolism in the Adoration of the Maji. Just above Christ and Mary there are two trees in the background. On the ground between these two trees there is a rabbit. This represents the two legs of the constellation Orion, in the tree trunks, with the constellation Lepus at his feet. It accurately portrays these two constellations as they are in the night sky. The foliage on the trees is angled to form Orion’s angled belt. So, we see in the trees the death occurring with the autumnal equinox, and beneath it on Mary’s lap is the resurrection; the child and light bringer; the sun reborn. If you remember, the winter solstice to the ancient Egyptians represented the birth of the sun. If we follow the line of Orion’s belt to the star Sirius, we come to a man in the crowd with his finger pointed up toward the sky. Just above him there is the construction of an ancient Egyptian temple on some ruins in the upper left corner of the painting. We know it’s an ancient Egyptian temple because of the columns with lotus flower caps. Also, at the base of the two trees there is a woman holding her hands up on a rock as though she is gesturing the opening of a cave. Next to her there is a woman pointing up toward the opening of a cave in the upper right corner of the painting. We can see Da Vinci sketched a mammoth on the wall to its entrance as though it were drawn by the initiates of early man. My favorite part about this painting has to be walking through it from right to left. In the bottom right there is a man distracted by something and he’s looking off the canvas at it; perhaps some synchronicity. He is enveloped in death and darkness just as the goddess Persephone is distracted as she gazes upon the narcissus flower. He then enters the chaos of the cave of transformation, through the winter solstice, to the temple of ancient knowledge, until finally he exits the initiation. He now stands at the bottom left corner of the painting a wise man; a philosopher who has found consciousness; wrapped in deep contemplation of the nature of all things. The same could be said of the kings kneeling before Christ with their gifts of symbolic immortality. The king at the bottom right is dying and appears grotesquely skeletal. He then becomes a seeker as there is a figure just above him that appears to be seeking. He then is leaning in just above Mary’s right shoulder; weak from the tears and pain of initiation. Beneath him he is then depicted looking at his own reflection in a puddle on the ground. Finally at the feet of the philosopher he is reborn; a young man glowing with inner light. Every figure in this painting tells a part of the story of this initiation. I feel like I could write a book on the different characters in this single painting. When one begins to equate the biblical story of the kings following the star to the birth of the sun with the ancient Egyptian idea of the death and resurrection of the sun, this painting begins to make a lot of sense. It speaks to the fact that wise men follow the death and resurrection of the sun; they follow the pattern. Even Christianity begins to make more sense when you are able to see the truth of this painting. There are some that interpret this painting as depicting the death of the pagan religions and the birth of Christianity but to take that view would be to accept that the only traditional Christian depiction in this painting is Christ on Mary’s lap; if that is the case then why bother with the detail of all the other stuff. Da Vinci is equating the truth of Christianity with the truth of the pagan religions. He knew it was all the same, just as I do. The reason this is the time of year when initiation is performed is because it is in keeping with the vibration of the universe. Just as one can breathe with the vibration of their body so too can you initiate with the vibration of the living, breathing, conscious universe. It is the time of year where death crosses the threshold to rebirth. Vegetation that had been dying will soon begin to come back to life. So, it is also true of the human psyche. When I look at these paintings, they bring tears to my eyes because I understand them as they were intended to be understood. The most important thing revealed in these paintings is the very real process of transformation, which is misunderstood and grossly misinterpreted throughout the world; but above and beyond all of that, these paintings are beautiful.” Roberts, Matthew. Initiated: UAP, Dreams, Depression, Delusions, Shadow People, Psychosis, Sleep Paralysis, and Pandemics (p. 281). Matthew Roberts. |
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27491
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: (& that's my second favorite... ;) n/t
| ^..^ |
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