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5728 |
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Date: January 10, 2015 at 14:24:55
From: snodrop, [DNS_Address]
Subject: "The Principle" |
URL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8cBvMCucTg |
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The Principle is a movie that is coming out that is
challenging the Copernical principle.
"In physical cosmology, the Copernican principle, named
after Nicolaus Copernicus, is a working assumption that
arises from a modified cosmological extension of
Copernicus' Sun centered Heliocentric Universe. The
Copernican principle assumes that neither the Sun nor
the Earth are in a central, specially favored position
in the universe.[1] More recently, the principle has
been generalized to the relativistic concept that humans
are not privileged observers of the universe.[2] In this
sense, it is equivalent to the mediocrity principle,
with important implications for the philosophy of
science." (Wiki)
Several noted scientists are saying the "math" of
cosmotology is wrong and that perhaps the earth IS
the center of the universe. The movie has caused
outrage and some of the scientists that were involved
in the making of this movie are retracting their
positions. Should make for an interesting and thought
provoking movie.
(hugs)
snodrop
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Responses:
[5729] [5731] [5732] [5730] |
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5729 |
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Date: January 10, 2015 at 15:41:47
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "The Principle" |
URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Principle |
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Hi snodrop,
> Several noted scientists are saying the "math" of
> cosmotology is wrong and that perhaps the earth IS
> the center of the universe.
Actually that doesn't seem to be true. I watched the trailer and it looked like a bunch of out of context quotes. Digging a little more apparently the film came out in 2014 and few have seen it. And the scientists in the movie have objected to the out of context quotes used for the agenda of the movie.
From Wikipedia on the controversy:
"Following the release of the film's trailer, narrator Kate Mulgrew said that she was misinformed as to the purpose of the documentary.[8][9] Max Tegmark claims that DeLano "cleverly tricked a whole bunch of us scientists into thinking that they were independent filmmakers doing an ordinary cosmology documentary, without mentioning anything about their hidden agenda."[10] George Ellis has said that "I was interviewed for it but they did not disclose this agenda, which of course is nonsense. I don't think it's worth responding to -- it just gives them publicity. To ignore is the best policy. But for the record, I totally disavow that silly agenda."[10] Michio Kaku said that the film was likely "clever editing" of his statements and bordered on "intellectual dishonesty"[3] and Lawrence Krauss said he had no recollection of being interviewed for the film and would have refused to be in it if he had known more about it.[11][12] Julian Barbour claims he never gave permission to be in the film.[13]"
This appears to be an example of anti-science pretending it is supported by science and the scientists interviewed are calling them on their dishonesty.
Cheers
Jim
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Responses:
[5731] [5732] [5730] |
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5731 |
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Date: January 10, 2015 at 16:10:47
From: snodrop, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "The Principle" |
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" Lawrence Krauss said he had no recollection of being
interviewed for the film and would have refused to be in
it if he had known more about it. Julian Barbour claims
he never gave permission to be in the film.[13]"
The release forms for Lawrence Krauss and Julian Barbour
were displayed on a live web cast session by the
producers of the film on May 28, 2014.[4] The release
form for Lawrence Krauss, and similarly Julian Barbour
include the verbage, "Interviewee...agrees that the
footage... will be used in a feature documentary ...
interviewee also understands Producer will seek out ...
unconventional interpretations and theories as well as
mainstream views."[4] On the live recorded weblog
Rationally Speaking uploaded to YouTube May 22 2014,
Lawrence Krauss states that after thinking about it, he
recalls being interviewed for The Principle."
I agree with what you said, but because it's caused such
an uproar vis-a-vie religion vs science, if it comes up
in a thread later...I want to be able to debate this:)
(hugs)
snodrop
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Responses:
[5732] |
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5732 |
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Date: January 10, 2015 at 17:25:03
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "The Principle" |
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Hi snodrop,
> I agree with what you said, but because it's caused such
> an uproar vis-a-vie religion vs science, if it comes up
> in a thread later...I want to be able to debate this:)
It is a volatile subject. Some in the scientific community and in the religious community don't believe science and religion can coexist. Personally I don't see these as mutually exclusive subjects.
But I don't think it helps to take out of context quotes from scientists amazing at the mysteries of the universe and use them to represent a completely different position than any of the scientists actually believe or have believed since the 1500s.
Cheers
Jim
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Responses:
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5730 |
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Date: January 10, 2015 at 15:47:52
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: 'Clever Editing' Warps Scientists' Words in New Geocentrism Film |
URL: 'Clever Editing' Warps Scientists' Words in New Geocentrism Film |
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'Clever Editing' Warps Scientists' Words in New Geocentrism Film
LiveScience.com
By Elizabeth Howell, Live Science Contributor April 16, 2014 8:08 AM
Four prominent cosmologists say they were misquoted in a documentary trailer promoting a claim debunked more than 450 years ago: that the Earth is in a privileged spot in the universe.
Producers of the independent film "The Principle" state that "science could be wrong" about the Copernican principle, or calculations by 16th-century astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus showing that Earth orbits around the sun and not the other way around. An Earth-centered solar system or universe is also defined as a geocentric system.
Co-producer Robert Sungenis did not respond to multiple interview requests from Live Science. His trailer received universal ridicule among scientists interviewed for this story, including Lawrence Krauss, who was portrayed in the preview. [Religion and Science: 6 Visions of Earth's Core]
"I'd be more upset, except the idea is so stupid that in the end, it will just reflect badly on them," said Krauss, a theoretical physicist at Arizona State University. Krauss has authored more than 300 scientific publications and several mainstream books.
"People are afraid that science will threaten their faith, and there are two approaches: One is to deny the results the science and the other is to misuse science," he told Live Science. "I think these people think if they can hoodwink scientists, they can show off a thing or two, and of course they won't show anything."
'Clever editing'
The science of Copernicus and Isaac Newton (who formulated three laws of motion) underpin modern astronomy and physics. Their principles cover matters such as how spacecraft get from one planet to another and foundational mechanics governing how skyscrapers are built.
As for how the scientists appeared in "The Principle" in the first place, Michio Kaku best known for his work on string theory said it was a matter of "clever editing" of innocuous statements, which is hard to combat, since he likely signed a release form for his participation.
"It borders on intellectual dishonesty to get people to be a part of a debate they don't want to be a part of," said Kaku, a theoretical physicist at the City College of New York who was also quoted in the trailer.
George Ellis, a mathematics professor emeritus at the University of Cape Town in South Africa, said geocentrism never came up in his interview.
"The interviewers never put that idea to me, and if they had done so, I would, of course, have said I do not agree," Ellis wrote in an email to Live Science. "There is no reason whatever to support such a view."
British physicist Julian Barbour cited in a trailer description of the documentary on YouTube said his involvement in the film seems to have arisen from a gross misunderstanding of a 1977 paper he di-authored with Italian physicist Bruno Bertotti.
The paper, Barbour told Live Science, created a model showing that Newton's First Law that objects in motion will continue to move in a straight line unless an external force is applied can be explained by distant stars or masses in the universe. The physicists used a simple modelin which the sun is at the center of the universe, but the model was not supposed to fully represent reality. It also, Barbour pointed out, is not a geocentric model as the Earth is still going around the sun.
"There's an awful lot of people on your side of the Atlantic that dont believe in evolution," Barbour said. "I think it geocentrism] might be the same kind of phenomenon.," Barbour sai.
Finding Earth's motion in space
Astronomer Chris Impey of the University of Arizona, who was not quoted in the trailer, said geocentric views do not necessarily mean a disbelief in evolution. Scientific conspiracy views, however, tend to cluster, he said.
More scientific literacy is needed to combat such uninformed views, especially to explain the subtle arguments against geocentrism, he said.
"Earth moving versus the sun was not a trivial issue to resolve, and in fact, it was not completely resolved in the time of Copernicus," Impey told Live Science. It wasn't until 1728 that James Bradley reported the aberration of starlight, a phenomenon where Earth's motion in space makes it look like the stars are changing positions.
Producers of the documentary include Robert Sungenis, whose writings include the book "Galileo Was Wrong: The Church Was Right" (CAI Publishing Inc., 2007), and Rick DeLano, who wrote a statement on "The Principle's" Facebook page.
DeLano said the documentary addresses information that "mainstream opinion makers" would not want publicized for example, a 1922 statement by Albert Einstein saying the motion of the Earth "cannot be detected by any optical experiment."
DeLano did not mention the rest of Einstein's sentence, in which he added that the Earth is revolving around the sun, or that Einstein's theory of special relativity explains stellar aberration.
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