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4922
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "... crust rotation with respect to the lower layers."
 Schematic view of the interior of Earth. 1. continental crust 2. oceanic crust 3. upper mantle 4. lower mantle 5. outer core 6. inner core A: crust-mantle boundary (Mohorovièiæ discontinuity) B: core–mantle boundary (Gutenberg discontinuity) C: outer core-inner core (Lehmann-Bullen discontinuity) pole shift hypothesis "Charles Hapgood ... speculated that the ice mass at one or both poles over-accumulates and destabilizes the Earth's rotational balance, causing slippage of all or much of Earth's outer crust around the Earth's core, which retains its axial orientation." "... James G. Bowles ... hypothesized that combined gravitational effects of the Sun and the Moon pulled at the Earth's crust at an oblique angle. This force steadily wore away at the underpinnings that linked the crust to the inner mantle. This generates a plastic zone that allows the crust to rotate with respect to the lower layers." |
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4959
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: it's all about spherical shells and the discontinuities between them
|
that's where the action is at ... at the discontinuities imagine ... if you will ... a force field that would grip the crust of the earth and hold it stationary would that stop the rotation of the inner spherical shells? i think not it's supposed that the earth's magnetic field is cause by the differential rotation rates of the inner core and the outer core ... and that it's that motion that acts like a dynamo to produce the magnetic field so ... if the crust moves with respect to the mantle ... and the inner core moves with respect to the outer core ... then what's all this stuff about Velikovsky's ideas defying Newton's principles? to my mind ... the naysayers don't have a leg to stand on ... they just don't like to think is all |
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4960
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: it's all about spherical shells and the discontinuities between...
|
Hi HG, Six posts this morning and this is the only one with any content?? > so ... if the crust moves with respect to the mantle ... and the inner core moves with respect to the outer > core ... then what's all this stuff about Velikovsky's ideas defying Newton's principles? Velikovsky claimed that the Earth stopped rotating and then restarted again due to an encounter with Venus. This has been discussed repeatedly over the past 70 years and the issue with conservation of angular momentum. Velikovsky's friend Einstein explained this to him prior to publication of Worlds in Collision. The wild movements of first Venus and then Mars followed by their establishing stable orbits violates the laws of conservation of energy and conservation of angular momentum. Really HG, before trying to come up with workable scenarios for Velikovsky shouldn't you make the effort to understand the actual issues? Cheers Jim |
4962
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: all you've proved is that you can't understand my hypothesis
| i can only suggest that you get a friend to help you with that |
4966
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: you trolled me for months yet your are incapable of discussion??
|
4970
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: seems all you have is a set of talking points you repeat ad infinitum (NT)
| (NT) |
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None
4969
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: i doubt you have the intellectual capacity to carry on a discussion (NT)
| (NT) |
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None
4968
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: is "discuss" what you call what you do? i think harass is more like it(NT)
| (NT) |
4972
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: seriously? Dude you have issues
|
Hi HG, Harassment? Seriously dude. You just responded to me with 3 unresponsive posts. You try to call me names and insult me. And this is after you trolled me the past several weeks calling me names until I finally acknowledged your trolling. David you have issues. Now chill with the trolling and harassment. If you want my attention I'll be glad to discuss Velikovsky and the science any time. Cheers Jim |
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[4975]
4975
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: i "try to call you names"? what names would those be? (NT)
| (NT) |
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None
4958
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: global plate tectonics holds that crust moves on the mantle
|
it's really only a question of rates ... they say the rate is similar to the growth of a finger nail ... but has that always been the case? would some catastrophic "close encounter" speed up that rate? that's the question the uniformitarians definitely don't want to contemplate to them ... the word catastrophe is anathema ... they don't even want to hear it spoken aloud it gives them the shaking fits |
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None
4924
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: using the idea of slippage at one or more discontinuities
| gives rise to the possibility of the outer crust of the earth being held immobile for a time by some external force ... the close approach of another planetary body ... while the inner core continues it's rotation undisturbed |
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4931
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "... four periods of world cataclysms that began about 10,500 BC
| "In 1871 Brasseur de Bourbourg published his Bibliothèque Mexico-Guatémalienne, a compendium of literature and sources associated with Mesoamerican studies. His last article, 'Chronologie historique des Mexicains' (1872) refers to the Codex Chimalpopoca and identifies four periods of world cataclysms that began about 10,500 BC and were the result of shifts in the Earth's axis (a concept related to pole shift theory)." |
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None
4929
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: the force between two spherical magnets
URL: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/VFPt_cylindrical_magnets_repelling.svg
|
force between magnets force between magnets it is known that cylindrical bar magnets with like poles facing each other have a repulsive force that acts between them there doesn't seem to be any literature on the internet for the force between two spherical magnets that have like poles facing in the same direction even so ... it's likely that the such a spherical pair of planetary size would initially have a repulsive force that acts between them whether or not that would be a stable system is open to conjecture ... though earth spin stability ... the rotation of the inner core independent of the outer spherical shells ... due to conservation of angular momentum would probably prevail planetary axial tilt "Mars' obliquity is currently in a chaotic state; it varies as much as 0° to 60° over some millions of years, depending on perturbations of the planets." "In astronomy, axial tilt (also called obliquity) is the angle between an object's rotational axis and the perpendicular to its Orbital plane, both oriented by the right hand rule. At an obliquity of 0°, these lines point in the same direction i.e. the rotational axis is perpendicular to the orbital plane. Axial tilt differs from inclination. Because the planet Venus has an axial tilt of 177° its rotation can be considered retrograde, opposite that of most of the other planets.[2][3] The north pole of Venus is "upside down" relative to its orbit." retrograde and prograde motion rotational energy of the earth astronomical precession stability of the solar system giant impact hypothesis alternative moon formation hypotheses clearing the neighbourhood around its orbit future of the earth global catastrophic risks "There is no force that causes the planets to rotate." "Most of the rotation comes about from the conservation of angular momentum." |
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4936
From: mr bopp, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: the force between two spherical magnets
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[4946] [4949] [4955] [4945] [4950] [4956] [4967] [4951] [4948] [4957] [4963] [4965] [4964]
4946
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: this documentary points out how blinded they are
4949
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: this documentary points out how blinded they are
|
Hi HG, Actually most people are surprised when I tell them the electric universe/comet theories were created to support Velikovsky. But you know that, don't you? You know the whole electric universe theory was created not to explain something that needed to be explained but to explain how Velikovsky's impossible tales could have been possible. And I'm sure you also realize that the electric universe people are not scientists, they do no research, they have found no answers, they simply do essays, books and videos about how they have the answers and the evil establishment is suppressing them like those scientific meanies who told poor Velikovsky he was wrong. Cheers Jim |
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[4955]
4955
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: i know that the truth scares you (NT)
| (NT) |
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None
4945
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: astronomy doesn't take electromagnetic field effects into account (NT)
| (NT) |
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4950
From: Skywise, [DNS_Address]
Subject: You sure about that???
|
Astronomy, particularly observational astronomy, is all about electromagnetic fields. Shirley you must be using a different definition of "electromagnetic field" than all of the astronomers... and physicists... and most everybody else. I know I'm going to regret having said anything... oh well. Damn the torpedoes! Full steam ahead! Brian |
4956
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: you need to follow the lead of your minder and deny everything (NT)
| (NT) |
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[4967]
4967
From: Skywise, [DNS_Address]
Subject: That's funny.... I thought I *WAS* the minder...
|
...based on non sequitur accusations from trolls like you. Brian |
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4951
From: mr bopp, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: You sure about that???
| shirley? there used to be a nice poster here with that name...surely you aren't referring to her...lol... |
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None
4948
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: it works pretty well without it
|
Hi HG, > astronomy doesn't take electromagnetic field effects into account While there are entire fields of astronomy researching plasma and electromagnetic fields the orbits of the planets, moons, asteroids and even space probes sent millions of miles are perfectly accounted for by Newtonian mechanics. Trying to beat the dead horse and resurrect Velikovsky you need electromagnetism to move entire planets, allowing Velikovsky's planetary billiards to be possible. It's not. These mighty electrical forces to defy physics don't exist. Cheers Jim |
4957
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: you so funny when you get all righteous and stuff (NT)
| (NT) |
4963
From: trapper/austin, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: you so funny when you get all righteous and stuff (NT)
| he is cute when he does that. |
4965
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: he seems to be able to read ... but he can't seem to understand (NT)
| (NT) |
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None
4964
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: i'm beginning to wonder if it's a real human being i'm dealing with
|
or some sort of automated machine that spews out the "party line" from "big science" i'm tending toward the latter explanation the non sequitur's continue to pile up to the point where a real human being would see the futility in dealing with a superior intellect |
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None
4933
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: the force between two spherical magnets
|
Hi HG, > there doesn't seem to be any literature on the internet for the force between two spherical magnets > that have like poles facing in the same direction Actually there is a wealth of information on spherical magnets and although spherical in shape they still have N and S poles that just like a bar magnet will repel each other. > even so ... it's likely that the such a spherical pair of planetary size would initially have a > repulsive force that acts between them Probably, if there were instruments sensitive enough to measure this miniscule repulsive force. Unfortunately for the catastrophists the repulsive force due to magnetism/magnetic fields would only be a tiny fraction of the gravitational force of two planetary size bodies so this doesn't allow for an overturning of the very inconvenient physics that shows the planetary billiards type scenario of Velikovsky wouldn't work. He friend Albert Einstein knew that and advised him on this prior to publication of Worlds in Collision. The science community knew this and knew the entire basis of his theories were severely flawed. Anyone with a basic understand of science knew this. > whether or not that would be a stable system is open to conjecture ... though earth spin stability ... the > rotation of the inner core independent of the outer spherical shells ... due to conservation of angular > momentum would probably prevail Interesting you mention conservation of angular momentum as that is the reason Velikovsky's ideas fail. "The fundamental criticism against this book (Worlds in Collision) from the astronomy community was that its celestial mechanics were irreconcilable with Newtonian celestial mechanics, requiring planetary orbits which could not be made to conform to the laws of conservation of energy and conservation of angular momentum. Velikovsky conceded that the behavior of the planets in his theories is not consistent with Newton's laws of motion and universal gravitation. He proposed that electromagnetic forces could be the cause of the movement of the planets, although such forces between astronomical bodies are essentially zero". Physics shows that Velikovsky's scenarios were impossible (which he acknowledged) and the electromagnetic force thing (which spawned the kooky Electric Universe people) is not helpful to revive these failed ideas. Cheers Jim |
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4935
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: the force between two spherical magnets ... what is it?
| what's the mathematical formula? |
4937
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: the force between two spherical magnets ... what is it?
|
Hi HG, > what's the mathematical formula? The formula for what? Be specific. Cheers Jim |
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4940
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: the formula for the force between two spherical magnets
| what is it? don't you know? |
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None
4934
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: you make assertions ... but you don't provide documentation
| if you can't provide documentation to validate your assertions you've got nothing |
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4938
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Here let me Google that for you!
|
Hi HG, Here let me Google that for you! Cheers Jim |
4939
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: if you make unsubstantiated assertions
| it's up to you to offer documentation ... otherwise ... as we all know ... you've got nothing to offer here |
4941
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: if you make unsubstantiated assertions
|
Hi HG, > it's up to you to offer documentation ... otherwise ... as we all know ... you've got nothing to offer here In other words, you don't want to hear anything and will cover your ears to inconvenient facts. That's what you are doing as you ask for mathematical formula you don't understand and documentation for things you won't accept anyway. Cheers Jim |
4942
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: they are only "inconvenient facts" if you document them
| otherwise they are only unsubstantiated assertions ... put up or shut up |
4943
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: they are only "inconvenient facts" if you document them
|
Hi HG, > otherwise they are only unsubstantiated assertions ... put up or shut up So what do you want support for? Be specific, blanket claims of "unsubstantiated assertions" sound like a petty way to dodge the issues. Is there something in my post you really think needs to be supported? And what type of support are you looking for? Cheers Jim |
4944
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: read your own posts ... if you can stomach them
| all your unsubstantiated assertions are there ... pick one you especially like ... or pick them all |
4947
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: I see, just another Velikovskian dodging reality
|
Hi HG, > all your unsubstantiated assertions are there ... pick one you especially like ... or pick them all LOL... just another Velikovskian dodging the truth. After you trolled me so much I thought you were finally ready to participate in a discussion. Instead you simply play games and dodge inconvenient facts. Cheers Jim |
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[4954]
4954
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: dodging what truth? ... i've yet to read any from you
| all you do is repeat unsubstantiated assertions |
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None
4925
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "The electrical discharge which Velikovsky calls a spark ..."
|
Newton's law of gravitational force "Newton's law of universal gravitation states that any two bodies in the universe attract each other with a force that is directly proportional to the product of their masses and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them." Coulomb's law of electrostatic force "Coulomb's law states that: The magnitude of the electrostatic force of interaction between two point charges is directly proportional to the scalar multiplication of the magnitudes of charges and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. The force is along the straight line joining them. If the two charges have the same sign, the electrostatic force between them is repulsive; if they have different sign, the force between them is attractive." thus ... if two like charged planetary bodies were to make a close approach to each other ... Newton's law of universal gravitation would cause the bodies to be attracted to each other ... and ... were it not for the repulsive electrostatic force between them ... they would collide ... the premise of the model is that ... if the two forces were to cancel each other ... then the two bodies might dance together in space a possible scenario for the mechanism for crustal slippage is as represented by the discussion of charge exchange presented by Bob Fritzius at the link Velikovsky's Water Mountain(s) "The electrical discharge which Velikovsky calls a spark may have taken place between the comet's dust tail and the Earth, rather than directly from the comet's globe (Venus) to the Earth. This 'closer' communion of electrodes would have permitted localized water mountains to form rather than a global tide. (A global tide would not have been consistent with the reported Exodus phenomenon.) The electrical charge transfer mechanism, which built up the potential difference between Earth and Venus would have been a flow of positive ions, transported by the solar wind from Venus to Earth in the comet's ion tail. This transfer process would occur whenever the Earth was immersed in the ion tail. Since scripture indicates that the pillar of fire and the pillar of cloud were visible day and night, we could surmise that Earth and Venus were temporarily orbiting each other so that the globe of the comet was nearly geosynchronous with respect to the exodus scene."  the formation of "localized water mountains" due to charge differences might act as a type of "tether" to cause crustal slippage independent of the rotation of internal spherical shells when it finally came ... the "spark" or exchange of electrical charge would then allow the two bodies to be released from their "dance" |
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