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4343
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: report on comet Tempel 1
| from a very quick scan ... quite a bit of information about "scarps," "ridges," "craters" and such ... but very little about "dirty snowballs" ... they even resort to the term "geology" in the report ... but nothing yet about "charge" or "electric machining" creating the features ... i guess we can't expect miracles over-night ... they've had a lot to swallow without chewing |
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4355
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: i'm following NASA lead ... by pretending you don't exist
| very much like they pretend that the exchange of electric charge does not take place and that electric arc machining is not responsible for the "scar on Mars" |
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[4358]
4358
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: ooo... bad example
|
Hi HG, > i'm following NASA lead ... by pretending you don't exist very much like they pretend that the exchange of > electric charge does not take place and that electric arc machining is not responsible for the "scar on Mars" Ouch, that's a bad example. That "scar on Mars" as you call it is known as Valles Marineris. It's been studied since the 1970's when it was named. Amusingly it is thought to have been formed by horst graben. No, not by you but by the geologic process. Maybe you've heard of it?? The erosion in Valles Marineris shows it formed billions of years ago. In the 1970's when Valles Marineris was imaged by spacecraft and named it may have seemed like a good idea to the neo-Velikovskian electric universe people to claim it was formed by their never seen thunderbolts. However after being studied for years by spacecraft not only from NASA but also Europe and Russia it is downright foolish to cling to such beliefs. Like a child covering their eyes and pretending their make believe world exists. And where are these exchanges of electric charge? Why has no one ever seen them?  Cheers Jim |
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4350
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: fact of the matter is ... i no longer read posts from some posters
| from experience ... i've learned that they're not worth the effort to click on the link ... but ... if you will ... keep on keeping on ... it makes no difference to me |
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[4352]
4352
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: I don't blame you.
|
Hi HG, I don't blame you. You want to believe in this pseudoscience crap so it would be best to cover your ears when the faults are pointed out. Much easier to believe if you only hear one side of the story. Cheers Jim |
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4347
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "investigator" comments from "Electric Comet" video
|
Every time we look, we find our textbooks were wrong. -- Ed Weiler, NASA Science Mission It's a mystery to me how comets work at all. -- Donald Brownlee, Principal Investigator, Stardust Mission Today we know that comets are black and cold, consisting of ices and dust that coalesced from an interstellar cloud as it collapsed to form the solar system. -- NASA inscription The comet samples collected by Stardust contain abundant crystalline minerals and in most cases it is clear that they did not form by the predicted mild heating of interstellar dust. -- Donald Brownlee, Principal Investigator, Stardust Mission The sulfide minerals formed between 50 and 20 degrees Celcius ... much warmer that the sub-zero temperatures predicted for the interior of the comet. -- Dante Lauretta, Principal Investigator, Wild 2 University of Arizona team The discovery shatters the existing paradigm of comets as "dirty snowballs," whose icy bulk never gets warm enough to melt. -- Cecile LeBlanc, EarthSky.org That's [the discovery of forsterite crystals] a big surprise. People thought comets would just be cold stuff that formed out ... where things are very cold. -- Michael Zolensky, NASA Curator When these minerals [olivine and forsterite] formed they were either red hot or white hot grains, and yet they were collected in a comet, the Siberia of the Solar System. -- Donald Brownlee, Principal Investigator, Stardust Mission If this mixing is occurring, as suggested by these results, then how do you preserve any kind of [compositional] zoning in the solar system? -- Michael Zolensky, NASA Curator Most of the components from the comet have isotopic compositions similar to Earth and are of solar system origin. -- Donald Brownlee, Principal Investigator, Stardust Mission The spectrum suggests that the surface [of comet Borrelly] is hot and dry. It is surprising that we saw no traces of water ice. -- Laurence Soderblom, U.S. Geological Survey We know the ice is there. It's just well-hidden. -- Laurence Soderblom, U.S. Geological Survey ... Cometary scientists need to consider more carefully whether H2O-ice really does constitute a major fraction of comet nuclei. -- The Journal Nature We had no clear expectation that comets shine in X-rays. -- Michael Mumma, NASA's Goddard Space Flight Center [Astronomers] were shocked by what they saw. ROSAT images revealed a crescent-shaped region of X-ray emission around the comet 1000 times more intense that anyone had predicted. -- NASA report on Comet Hyakutake We now recognize that X-ray emission is a characteristic of all active comets. -- C.M. Lisse, T.E. Cravens, K. Dennerl; "X-Ray and Extreme Ultraviolet Emission from Comets" What you see is something really surprising. First, there is a small flash, then there's a delay, then there's a big flash and the whole thing breaks loose. -- Peter Schultz, Stardust-NeXT team As negative ions are easily destroyed by solar radiation at ~ 1 AU, an efficient production mechanism, so far unidentified, is required to account for the observed densities. -- P. Chaizy et al., Letters to the Journal Nature, January 31, 1991 Swift scientists have seen a quick and dramatic rise in ultra violet light, evidence that a Deep Impact probe struck a hard surface, as opposed to a softer, snowy surface. -- Universe Today, "SWIFT's Take on Deep Impact" The material that came out [of comet Tempel 1] was a surprise to scientists: a cloud of fine powdery material emerged, not the water, ice and dirt that were expected. -- Cosmosmagazine.com, February 16, 2011 Theories about the volatile layers below the surface of the short-period comets are going to have to be revised. -- Charlie Qi, Astronomer, CfA It has proven difficult to identify specific landforms that can be identified as the "vents" discussed for many decades in classical comet literature, as it is difficult to located them on Borrelly and Wild 2. -- P.C. Thomas et al., Icarus The image [taken by Stardust/NeXT of Tempel 1] reveals topographic features, including ridges, scalloped edges and possibly impact craters ... -- American Physical Society, Physics Central Another process must account for the depressions, according to [Michael] A'Hearn. -- The Journal Nature Most of the jets observed during the SN flyby [of Tempel 1] can be traced back to an apparently eroding terraced scarp. -- J. Veverka, et al. "Return to Comet Tempel 1", Icarus, April 2013 There was surprise in the sense that you could have expected a crater [on Tempel 1] that was very well defined. -- Peter Schultz, Stardust-NeXT team The images [of the impact site on Tempel 1] did not show much of a crater. The scientists say they believe the debris blown into the air [?] settled right back down. -- CNN citing NASA investigator Peter Schultz It appears that the crater partly healed itself. -- Peter Schultz, Stardust-NeXT team What is significant is that the extent of this ice on Tempel 1's surface is not sufficient to produce the observed abundance of water and its by-products in the comet's coma. -- Lucy McFadden, Co-Investigator, Deep Impact The particle size of the water ice is greater than the icy grains in the coma and is probably recondensed onto the comet's surface. -- Lucy McFadden, Co-Investigator, Deep Impact We have a very heterogeneous nucleus [referring to Hartley 2]. The lobes are different. -- Lori Faega, EPOXI Mission scientist How you'd get what looks like a volatile-rich object linked up to a volatile-poor object [referring to Hartley 2] is a bit of a puzzle. -- Paul Weissman, Senior research scientis, NASA Jet Propulsion Laboratory The ingredients for both comets and planets must have been mixed up early on in the formation of our solar system. Without this mixing, comets would have a more homogeneous composition. -- Michael A'Hearn, Principal Investigator, EPOXI Mission We are speculating that this means that the two lobes of the comet [Hartley 2] formed in different places in the Solar System. They came together in a gradual collision ... -- Michael A'Hearn, Principal Investigator, EPOXI Mission We think the waist [of Hartley 2] is a deposit of material from other parts of the comet, our first evidence of redistribution on a comet. Material coming off the ends of the comet then falls back into the lowest point, the waist. -- Jessica Sunshine, Principal Investigator, EPOXI Mission We have jets in the night time, we have jets along the edges, we have jets in the sun ... We have a lot of work to do to try and understand what's going on here. -- Jessica Sunshine, Principal Investigator, EPOXI Mission The real surprise was that the [surface] brightness was suffficient to do that ... Putting it together is something we're struggling with. -- Michael A'Hearn, Principal Investigator, EPOXI Mission We don't know why the amount [of CN] coming off the comet changed so drastically for a short period of time. We've never seen anything like this before. -- Lucy McFadden, Investigator, EPOXI Mission In other cases where a comet has had a big outburst, a lot of dust has been released at the same time. But in this case, the amount of dust did not change, yet the CN gas abundance exploded. -- NASA EPOXI Mission News If observers monitoring Hartley 2 do not take into account this new phenomenon, they could easily get the wrong picture of how the comet is changing. -- Michael A'Hearn, Principal Investigator, EPOXI Mission Comets are perhaps at once the most spectacular and the least well understood members of the solar system. -- M. Neugebauer, Jet Propulsion Laboratory |
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4374
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: the big "TELL" in this series is the posts that are NOT commented on
| those are the ones you should pay particular attention to ... these are the one that illustrate how CLUELESS establishment comet science is ... the "Electric Comet" video folks did a wonderful job ... the denial and floundering are the deepest when they quote the "principal investigators" |
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4395
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: notice previous post made on November 16, 2013 at 15:42:30
| and it was followed by a "flurry" of activity ... as if to "prove" my assertion wrong ... good luck on putting that one over |
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4401
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: avoiding the context?? (NT)
| (NT) |
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4390
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: of course ... now that i've posted the "TELL" notification
|
the comments come flooding in ... LOL ... "post-diluvian" as it were ... on some of the topics ... but some have been left "untouched" ... now why is that? does NASA really spread fecal material on us taxpayers by withholding information from us ... are they really that arrogant? the fact that they won't even comment on Wallace Thornhill's Tempel 1 predictions speaks volumes about just how arrogant they really are |
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4392
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: so no response to the actual context? LOL (NT)
| (NT) |
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4388
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Re: electrical field perturbations between ISON and Mars
|
the suggestion is that NASA did not see fit to make images public is that the idea ... is that how science "works" now? they only release what they think is prudent to publish are they really that arrogant? |
4483
From: Earthstone, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Faraday Cage
|
The narrator mentions the usefulness of a Faraday Cage near the end. Most things in the last 30 years have been built with regard to that. Tone |
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[4515]
4515
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "Brill" has a "Faraday cage" in "Enemy of the State"
| to thwart NSA "probes" |
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4393
From: Karen in IL, [DNS_Address]
Subject: I just had a funny thought while watching that video
|
...maybe not "funny ha-ha", but it popped into my head while viewing. Perhaps Mars just got a "jump-start", but with all of our man-made electrical devices all over the place, we could get quite the opposite effect. Just a thought... |
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4394
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: there have been suggestions of multiple "emp" disturbances
| Velikovsky cites many examples from ancient records and oral traditions that indicate just such a thing is possible with a cometary "near miss" |
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4384
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "fallible" is one thing ... intellectual dishonesty quite another
|
We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark; the real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light. -- Plato |
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4385
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: true and the electric universe people are intellectually dishonest
|
Hi HG, > "fallible" is one thing ... intellectual dishonesty quite another Very true and that is the difference between science and pseudoscience. You love your quotes of real scientists admitting they are fallible, yet you don't seem to notice that the pseudoscience people of the electric universe theory are infallible with their never changing theories. Just look at those Thunderbolts predictions of the Deep Impact probe. Their predictions were all wrong, but they still claimed that the results showed they were right. That is intellectual dishonesty. Or maybe dimwitted dishonesty and the electric universe people certainly aren't intellectuals. Cheers Jim |
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4381
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Schultz and Soderblom ... the "DEUS EX MACHINA" gang
| objects of ridicule and derision ... just like their forefathers treated Velikovsky ... beware ... the worm turns and will extract an exacting vengeance |
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4377
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: reason being is quotes show "principal investigators" are fallible
|
and use "deus ex machine" explanations to try to get themselves out of the corners they've been painted into by generations of "theorists" whose theories had no basis in reality ... but were ... rather ... fanciful ideas created by men with vivid imaginations i'd be interested to know how "context" would help "Peter Schultz, Stardust-NeXT team" with this gaffe, "It appears that the crater partly healed itself." as if healing were a willful act performed by the crater similarly "context" wouldn't seem to be much help to "Laurence Soderblom, U.S. Geological Survey" with his "We know the ice is there. It's just well-hidden." who seems to suggest that the ice has been hidden by some yet-to-be-revealed stealthy agent ha ha ... good luck on putting context to those ... but i know preposterous when i read it |
4387
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: reason being is quotes show "principal investigators"...
URL: http://discovermagazine.com/2003/jan/astronomy#.UonKzifivZg
|
Hi HG, > similarly "context" wouldn't seem to be much help to "Laurence Soderblom, U.S. Geological Survey" with his > "We know the ice is there. It's just well-hidden." who seems to suggest that the ice has been hidden by > some yet-to-be-revealed stealthy agent This one in context comes from Discover magazine, link above, text and context below. Comets are supposed to be big chunks of ice and dust—"dirty snowballs" in astronomical slang—but the most thorough study of a comet's surface to date reveals a bone-dry landscape that is hotter than the Sahara at noon. In September 2001, NASA's Deep Space 1 spacecraft passed within 1,350 miles of Borrelly, a somewhat burned-out comet without much of a tail. The full results of the encounter, reported last spring, show that Borrelly is hardly a wonderland of ice. The surface is exceptionally dark—as black as photocopy toner—and covered with mottled markings. Active regions that emit jets of gas and dust cover just 10 percent of the surface; the rest appears to be dormant and dry. "These pictures have told us that comet nuclei are far more complex than we ever imagined," says Laurence Soderblom of the U.S. Geological Survey, leader of the probe's imaging team. Soderblom says temperatures on Borrelly's surface ranged between 80 and 161 degrees Fahrenheit. In that heat, exposed ice would vaporize quickly. Most of the surface water appears to be depleted, leaving behind a thick crust of dark organic material. But Soderblom is confident that the comet still contains water left over from the solar system's early days. "We know the ice is there; it's just well-hidden," he says. —Philip Ball In that context Soderblom knows that ices or water cannot exist on the surface due to the temperatures. Borrelly has a period just over six years and remains in the inner solar system near the Sun with much of it's volatiles expended. And yet comet Borrelly still puts out dust and gas as seen by the DS1 spacecraft and observations from Earth. The ice is there and hidden from the Sun and cameras on Deep Space 1. No villain hide it, no stealthy agent, just the process of this comet moving near the Sun every 6 years for hundreds or thousands of years had depleted any ices close to the surface. Now let me ask you HG, do you know how to use Google? Or Bing? Or another search engine? You probably won't want to do it but it's very easy to find and understand the context in which a comment was made if you simply find the actual context. Phonies like the thunderbolts guys are famous for out of context quotes and to understand them all it takes is to find the full text from which those were taken. Go ahead, give it a try and report back here. Cheers Jim |
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4386
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: a brief search an quotes are in context
|
Hi HG, > i'd be interested to know how "context" would help "Peter Schultz, Stardust-NeXT team" with this gaffe, > "It appears that the crater partly healed itself." as if healing were a willful act performed by the crater Let's apply context to that from this CNN article and see if that helps clear it up. The hope was that Stardust would send back dramatic pictures of a hole in the comet made by another spacecraft back in 2005. During that mission, called Deep Impact, a probe was sent crashing into the surface of Tempel 1 to get a close-up look at the material below the surface. However, the force of that collision threw out so much debris that it obscured from view the resulting crater. The Stardust images showed spectacular close-ups of the boulder-shaped comet and highlighted how erosion has changed the face of Tempel 1 over the past 5˝ years. But the images did not show much of a crater. The scientists say they believe the debris blown into air settled right back down. "The crater partly healed itself," Schultz said. At one point he joked, "Hey, we saw the crater." Principal investigator Joe Veverka added, "Yah, we really did see the crater." So in context we see that Schultz is saying "the crater partly healed itself" in talking about all the dust and debris that had settled back down on the surface and into the crater on Tempel 1 after the impact. In context it no longer sounds like a willful act, but instead referring to the dust partially refilling the new crater. Cheers Jim |
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4382
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: everyone is fallible, that's why science changes
|
Hi HG, Everyone is fallible, that's why science changes with new observations. Contrast that with pseudoscience that never changes regardless of the observation. You can't post quotes of the electric universe guys admitting they are wrong... because they never do. New observations never cause them to change their views. That is the definition of dogma. Cheers Jim |
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4376
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: another big "TELL" is how quickly the "knee jerk" came (NT)
| (NT) |
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4375
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: out of context quotes is not science (NT)
| (NT) |
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4365
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "It's a mystery to me how comets work at all." (NT)
| (NT) |
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4364
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: "Every time we look, we find our textbooks were wrong." (NT)
| (NT) |
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4363
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: runner-up, "It appears that the crater partly healed itself." (NT)
| (NT) |
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4356
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: my favorite, "We know the ice is there. It's just well-hidden."(NT)
| (NT) |
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4348
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Wallace Thornhill comments from "Electric Comet"...
|
Advocates of the Electric Universe expect a "shock to the system" with revolutionary implications. They say that a comet is not a primordial object left over from the formation of the solar system. Electrical interactions with Deep Impact may be slight, but they should be measurable if NASA will look for them ... Electrical stress may short out the electronics on board the impactor before impact. The most obvious would be a flash (lightning-like discharge) shortly before impact. More energy will be released than expected because of the electrical contributions of the comet. The impact/electrical discharge will be into rock, not loosely consolidated ice and dust. The impact crater will be smaller than expected. An abundance of water on or below the surface of the nucleus is unlikely. The discharge and/or impact may initiate a new jet on the nucleus and could even abruptly change the positions and intensities of other jets due ot the sudden change in charge distribution on the comet nucleus. The [electric comet] model predicts a sculpted surface, distinguished by sharply defined craters, valleys, mesas, and ridges -- the opposite of the softened relief expected of a sublimating "dirty snowball." Negative oxygen ions from cathodic etching of rock minerals in the nucleus will combine with protons from the solar wind to form water in the coma and tail. |
4351
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Wallace Thornhill comments from "Electric Comet"...
|
Hi HG, Yes, I rather enjoyed the Thunderbolts predictions prior to Deep Impact. Let's see how they did. > Electrical interactions with Deep Impact may be slight, but they should be measurable if NASA will > look for them ... Electrical stress may short out the electronics on board the impactor before impact. Strike one. None of the electronics shorted out. > The most obvious would be a flash (lightning-like discharge) shortly before impact. Strike two, no flashes or discharges prior to impact. > More energy will be released than expected because of the electrical contributions of the comet. Strike three, No more energy was released than expected. > The impact/electrical discharge will be into rock, not loosely consolidated ice and dust. The impact > crater will be smaller than expected. Strike four, and five. The impact hit a fairly weak area releasing 11 million lbs of water and 22-55 million lbs of dust. Using the ejected dust to map the gravity of the comet it is found to be porous like a sponge. Followup observations by the Stardust spacecraft found the crater about the expected size, 150 meters. It's observations also found that this is a weak area of the comet and there is erosion of the new crater. > An abundance of water on or below the surface of the nucleus is unlikely. Another swing, another miss. A large amount of water was ejected from the impact, 11 million lbs of it. > The discharge and/or impact may initiate a new jet on the nucleus and could even abruptly change the > positions and intensities of other jets due ot the sudden change in charge distribution on the comet nucleus. Other than the site of the impact, which out-gassed for 13 days there were no other new jets. > The [electric comet] model predicts a sculpted surface, distinguished by sharply defined craters, > valleys, mesas, and ridges -- the opposite of the softened relief expected of a sublimating "dirty snowball." Not even close. The surface is very smoothed with poorly defined craters, very far from a "sculpted surface". You should know this one is wrong, you just posted a paper on the surface structure of comet Tempel 1.  > Negative oxygen ions from cathodic etching of rock minerals in the nucleus will combine with protons from > the solar wind to form water in the coma and tail. Nothing like this was seen. There was a large amount of water in the ejected plume from the comet. I did a post on the failures of the Thunderbolts Deep Impact predictions a few years ago. They did so badly I doubt they will make such predictions again. Cheers Jim |
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4349
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: the electric comet model provides cogent explanation for phenomena
|
but establishment scientists ... though they continue to be stunned and befuddled by the data ... continue to ignore the electric comet model as if it did not exist Today, nothing is more important to the future and credibility of science than liberation from the gravity-driven universe of prior theory. A mistaken supposition has not only prevented intelligent and sincere investigators from seeing what would otherwise be obvious, it has bred indifference to possibilities that could have inspired the sciences for decades. -- David Talbott and Wallace Thornhill |
4379
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: and the video correctly labels them as "QUACKADEMIA"
| the DEUS EX MACHINA gang |
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[4380]
4380
From: horst graben, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: they represent the "comedic device" version of the description
| "... a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved by the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object. Depending on how it is done, it can be intended to move the story forward when the writer has 'painted himself into a corner' and sees no other way out, to surprise the audience, to bring a happy ending into the tale, or as a comedic device." |
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4345
From: marja, [DNS_Address]
Subject: I'm waiting for this comet to show
| since I'm a dreamer I do expect something to show up in the dreaming....it's all quite fascinating.... |
4346
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: I'm waiting for this comet to show
|
Hi Marja, Comet 9P Tempel 1 is a short period comet. The next favorable approach is in 2016, but it will still be dim and far away requiring a telescope with camera to spot it. Cheers Jim |
4353
From: marja, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: I'm waiting for this comet to show
|
hey Jim thanks.... I have rocks I believe to be meteorites that I've found in the wilderness..... what's the best way to find out if these rocks in fact are meteorites ??? I picked these particular rocks while camping in the pristine wilderness about eight hours drive from SF in northern ca.....it's very wild up there.... the way I likes it ..... |
4357
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: I'm waiting for this comet to show
|
Hi Marja, A basic test is to see if a magnet will stick to them. Any magnet, even a refrigerator magnet will work. This isn't an absolute test, but most meteorites contain iron while few native Earth rocks will stick to a magnet. There are also some tips at the link above. Good luck, meteorites are worth more than gold! Cheers Jim |
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4360
From: marja, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: I'm waiting for this comet to show
| thanks, -kiitos, my magnets will be busy.... |
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4344
From: JTRIV, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: report on comet Tempel 1
|
Hi HG, > from a very quick scan ... quite a bit of information about "scarps," "ridges," "craters" and such ... but > very little about "dirty snowballs" ... they even resort to the term "geology" in the report ... Sure, the paper is titled The shape, topography, and geology of Tempel 1 from Deep Impact observations. And as titled the paper is about the shape and geology of the nucleus. > but nothing yet about "charge" or "electric machining" creating the features ... Yes, but you have to remember these are scientists and not pseudoscience fakers pushing an agenda. Scientists report on what they observe, pseudoscience fakers tell the story of the dogma they believe regardless of what is observed. Cheers Jim |
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