27510
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Question for Ryan & whomever else feels to chime in...
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...w/their input... Ryan, from your many posts over the years and knowing you to the degree I do, it's my impression that the phenomenon of spiritual evolution has been something you see as of having core value for humanity, a process you hold in high esteem... You recently mentioned this in a post on the Nat'l board, but I wasn't sure if I should transplant it over here so directly... And as I type that, I find myself wondering if differentiating between the terms *evolution* and "spiritual evolution* is important here, for this question...? So we'll see eh? Since for me, everything the word evolution represents is a spiritual reality, first and foremost, I'll just ask from there, and you can elaborate as you feel to if this figures in. So. Question: What exactly, to your own personal sensibilities (as opposed to anything coming from outside yourself), comprises *spiritual evolution*? What does that two-word term actually translate to, in substance? What is being *grown,* precisely? From where or what, to what or where? Been going round & round w/all that factors into this conversation for years now...lol...think I've finally sussed out a way to roll it out from my end...lol... ;D |
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27515
From: marja, [DNS_Address]
Subject: shadow
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I never read this particular forum which is kind of strange since I'm a dreamer and spiritual my own way, -nothing to do with any organized religions, I stay away from those like the plague itself .. once in the dreaming I entered a place I believe to be the Shangri-La , high up in the Tibetan Mountains, -the way up there was thru a mountainous way, as I was climbing the mountain I encountered all kinds of people/beings... upon arrival to the destination, I found a structure , then opening to the various " rooms" , every " room " had a different motif, -some had massive lotus flowers floating on the water, some had angelic beings.. it was all stunningly beautiful.. I have traveled the astral world forever it seems, -certain things/places stay within the memory .. we all have our own journey to contemplate and to focus on, it's important not to waste one's energies on trivial stupidity since none of us have any excess energy to spare, -and this is nothing to do with the everyday energy.. Mama Earth needs our BEST energy as of now, this Earth is heading to the wrong direction.. be well |
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27517
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: (((marja)))
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"Spiritual in your own way" is a beautiful thing, and thank you for sharing it here from your gift for higher-resonance-/-reality Vision & Dreaming... ;) It must be wonderful to be dialed in at that level! I am not, at all...lol...I am *aware* to a certain extent, in those resonances, but *see* them? Noooo...lol... I wish I could see what you see! ;D Thank you for all you bring to Earth... She needs us now like never before, to help course-correct from all the angles of disaster we humans have wrought upon her... ;( And I agree there's energy for little else but bringing ourselves constantly back to this focus, to rebirth the whole tamale... Love to you! |
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27512
From: et, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Question on *spiritual evolution* or *evolution of spiritual*
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shadow... I imagine you realize that a shado emerges from a light and object and a screen ... in any event you asked and invited responses to something relate to *spiritual evolution*... the response I made involving *evolution of spiritual* may seem to some a quibble but there is much more underneath that... so maybe you finally best and better susse out a way to roll it out from thy end...lol...just make sure to do so accordingly or else.... ;D |
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27514
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Question on *spiritual evolution* or *evolution of spiritual*
| Well, thanks for your input, et... ;) |
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27511
From: ryan, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Question for Ryan & whomever else feels to chime in...
| we call it "evolution' because we see it as moving towards a higher form of "being" from a lower state...in reality, it is just a return to what we were and have always been...it's the 'ol return to the source mantra...a "re-member-ing"...i do mean a spiritual evolution, not a physical one...our bodies are well thought out machines, designed to take coarser energies, and through experience and conscious effort, convert them into finer energies, some of which are used to "feed" the creation and anything left over is used for our own personal evolution, which consists of creating finer bodies with these finer energies that have the possibility of continuing to exist after our physical death...this is how i have come to understand how things work, not only from studying gurdjieff's teachings, but all the knowledge in various "religions" that has been passed down through the ages of mankind...to me, spiritual evolution basically means learning how to get out of the way and letting the creation actualize its will through me, which when i have sensed it occurring, is a far better way to exist than by my own bumbling stumbling efforts which come from my learned and imprinted personality rather than from my divine essence...evolution means balancing the three centers we all have, mental, physical and emotional so they work properly...it means letting go of "me", and re-discovering "I"...that's a start... |
27521
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: ...Continuum... ;)
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Right. Finally! lol Okay. So I'm with you on how spiritual evolution can be seen as: A process in which we shift from relating to/experiencing ourselves as "me" (Gurdjeffian term, yes? Meaning smaller/younger self?) into understanding ourselves to be "I", or greater/elder self... (If I don't have that quite right, we'll get to that...) ...as well as a returning to/remembering who/what we have always been/will always be, which you used the word Source to describe... ...as well as the understanding that "getting out of the way" so that Source, the Creation, more easily enacts Its will through the individual, is another great way to describe that process... ...as well as seeing the spiritual-evolutionary process through its energetic-phenomenon context in which, through "experience and conscious effort," we take the coarser/denser energies we "begin" with...sometimes termed "lower"...and, over time, refine them into "higher-resonance"/finer ones, that serve/reflect our own personal spiritual evolution as well as the planetary one... And when it comes to (again, G terms?) a definition of spiritual evolution being that of "balancing the three centers we all have, mental, physical and emotional so they work properly"...yeah, we might be on overlapping pages there, so to speak, but my sense is that my way of seeing that doesn't quite line up the same... ;) Okay! So here's my next questions. Regarding the terms "experience and conscious effort" -- what, exactly, does that translate to? What specifically is the conscious-effort *work* we gain experience with, over time, that organically *raises us* into higher-/finer-energy realms of experience, and ways of identifying with it? That, yes, certainly survive physical death & nurture/feed all of Creation...) Now I know I used the term *work* there... ;) ...and I remember that Gurdjieff utilizes that term to describe his overall oeuvre, the substance of his teaching...if I'm correct...? Obviously that can't be condensed in this conversation, and that's not necessarily what I'm looking for, anyway, in this question... I'm asking for your own understanding of what that means. And if it's so parallel with G's that his own would be identical w/your own words, then feel free to summarize, if you can here... ;) What is Source, to you? That we have always been and are returning to? My sense is a big part of what I'm feeling to share, as this progresses...which has more to do with my understanding of exactly what the substance of the energies moving from "lower/denser/coarser" to "higher/faster/finer," actually are...and our experiential realities that reflect them, as we enact what that process actually IS, within ourselves...that'll comprise how G's offerings/understandings may differ from my own... Okay, that's enough for now...lol... ;) |
27525
From: ryan, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: ...Continuum... ;)
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me..I...yes "What is Source, to you? That we have always been and are returning to? " i have no intimate knowledge of what the source is, but i find g's explanation of it believable and compelling...the source, apparently, has always been and will always be...according to g, at some point, the source realized that it was slowly becoming "less", and the creation was the source's solution to this perceived problem...so it disgorged itself into 3 parts, the old holy trinity...the holy affirming, the holy denying and the holy reconciling...from these 3 released aspects of the source, everything else in the creation unfolded...the "further" from the source, the denser and slower and coarser the energies are...if it interests you g has written some pretty comprehensive stuff about the details...anyway, the interactions of everything in this source created reality stabilize the source, and cease its "diminishment"...that is a crude explanation of how things work...the creation works on the principle of what g called iraniranumange or reciprocal maintenance , which begins with the source feeding the creation, and the reciprocal feeding of the source by the creation... ............... thoughts from some dude... At the news about the Gulf oil spill, my daughter, who lived in New Orleans for six years (including Katrina), cried out, “What is wrong with us!?” Wouldn’t most people just say it’s a tragically unfortunate accident, or blame BP or the government, someone? Are there some, the truly callous, who consider fouling our own nest and killing untold plants and animals just the cost of doing business? I don't know. A real question. “What is wrong with us!?” Not them, us. Gurdjieff asserts that we, as a species, are lop-sided in our development. It's easy to see that our technological expertise, our rationality, far, far outstrips our understanding, our emotional development, our being. But is there more to this? Is something wrong with us? I find it surprising that I give more and more credence to historical-spiritual points of view that say that long ago something happened to the human race, something that led to our current state of affairs. I never understood the doctrine of original sin. How could that make any sense? It still seems a little crazy to me. But could it come from an intuition that has some basis in fact? As I wrote in a another post Gurdjieff gives a different perspective in his great mythology All & Everything. He says that for certain reasons early in our history the Higher Powers implanted a something in Mankind to make us see reality upside down… later, the something was removed, but its effect still continues in us. How is one to take this? Crazy talk? Purely symbolic? How could one possibly verify? But isn't it a fact that something is wrong with us? There are many trains of thought that could leave from this station. The one I want to follow is this: One of the main problems of humanity is that we don’t know our place in the world. We don’t know why we exist. We don’t understand our role. We don’t have a clue about our place in the reciprocal maintenance of all and everything. What is the meaning of life? “Why do we exist?” “What is our place?” Gurdjieff’s question was “What is the sense and significance of life on earth and human life in particular?“ My guess is that most people would fall into one of three camps regarding this question. #1. Scientific Attitude: There is no meaning to the question. Life is an accidental valueless occurrence. #2. Religious Attitude: God made the world and we are here to serve and worship an all-powerful God. #3. Mainstream Attitude: I don’t care about such questions. I’m just trying to get by, make a living, have a little fun. As I grew up something seemed wrong with the world and with me. It seemed that if one really believed #1 was true, what would motivate one to do anything? On the other hand, it didn’t make sense to believe #2 either. How could an all-powerful God be reconciled with the suffering and state of the world? So, like countless others, I drifted toward the third attitude. But not with any comfort. When first coming across Gurdjieff’s answer it struck me as a revelation. Everything is connected. Everything supports everything else. Why would humans not also have a purpose? Gurdjieff calls it Reciprocal Maintenance. There is a universal exchange of energies. On all levels. On all scales. What does this mean for us? |
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27523
From: ryan, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: ...Continuum... ;)
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as a start, here is a good explanation of intentional suffering and conscious labor... Intentional Suffering and Conscious Labor One of the things we emphasize most strongly is to regularly attend retreats, where we have the opportunity to really settle into all aspects of practice more deeply. One crucial element of retreats is that they create an artificial environment—minimizing external distractions—so that we can look more deeply inward. Since we may feel both the physical discomfort from long days of sitting, as well as the emotional discomfort that comes when difficult emotions arise, retreats can be, in part, an act of “intentional suffering.” Intentional suffering, a term from the Gurdjieff teachings, is where we consciously place ourselves in circumstances where we are forced to deal with difficulty—both physical and emotional. In other words, the retreat environment can help push us in ways that we would never push ourselves on our own. For example, one of the great benefits of retreats is sitting in silence. We intentionally place ourselves in this environment where there is no talking. It’s true that at times we might relish it—but usually not for too long. The feeling of restlessness might kick in. Or the desire for a little drama, a little entertainment. And often we follow the urge—even if we’re just talking to ourselves. Yet, sitting in silence allows us to see through how we continually try to distract ourselves. In other words, it forces us to look more deeply at ourselves. There are two very different types of suffering—intentional or conscious suffering, and, as Gurdjieff calls it, stupid suffering. The second kind of suffering is our everyday suffering, which is self-imposed by our own mechanicalness and neurotic conditioning. For example, our angry or anxious reactions, our self-judgments, and our addictive behaviors that bring us no real or lasting satisfaction. Hopefully, we have all found out that this kind of suffering is completely useless, and often avoidable; or, at the very least, workable. In fact, one of the primary purposes of our practice is to gradually liberate us from this pointless, self-inflicted misery. Every time we make an effort to intentionally stay with our experience, especially when it’s difficult, it’s food for our Being, nourishing qualities like perseverance and equanimity. This is one of the prime ways our learning can go deeper. In many ways, were afraid to look at—to really see—our many layers of self. It takes some courage to face not only our beliefs and assumptions, but also our identification with them. We’re afraid that the story that we’ve been telling ourselves all along—about who we are, what our life has been, why things are the way they are—will be jarred and shaken. If we are not this story, this fabrication of a life, who are we? And until we have a deeper sense of Being, the story of ourselves is all we know. So it’s good to look precisely at our many layers, particularly where we’re afraid. These are our hidden corners—our edge. This is where we must go most deeply. It is one of the paradoxes of spiritual practice that the more deeply we look into self, with conscious efforts, the more we become free of self. In this way, retreats offer us the opportunity to take our learning to deeper levels, always grounded in our willingness to intentionally suffer, that is, to stay present with our own difficult experience. When we talk about learning, we’re not talking about acquiring conceptual knowledge or intellectual insights. In practice, the real learning process has to be experiential. Without the experiential component, especially without our inner struggles, our understanding remains merely conceptual. In other words, to be transformative we must move from growth in mere knowledge to growth in what we call Being, or Being-Awareness. This does not mean, however, that there is a bigger or better “me”—what it means is that we are connecting more fully with who we really are and with what life is. As an example of the learning process in retreats, a very common meditation instruction is to bring attention to the breath. At first, we usually understand this to mean we should focus on the breath in a very concentrated way. So when we go to retreats we will follow this practice, often with the idea that if we stay really focused on the breath, we will become more calm. This notion is what many people believe meditation is about in the Me-phase of practice. After we’ve worked with this practice for a while, our understanding may begin to change. As we sit and struggle through the long hours of retreats—and this is what is meant by intentional suffering—there is often a shift from simply trying to become calm, toward viewing the breath as part of a wider container of awareness. The breath becomes the space within which we experience our thoughts and emotions. At this point we are moving from the Me-phase of practice into Being-Awareness, cultivating a larger sense of life. But over time, the awareness of the breath can take us even deeper. As we practice awareness of the breath through many retreats—intentionally undergoing difficult conditions—the breath can become a touchpoint or portal into reality. The breath touches lightly on the center of the chest, and puts us in touch with the warmth of our natural kindness. Eventually, a very light, almost effortless awareness replaces the former disciplined focus on the breath. And perhaps, at some point, we become aware of the breath breathing itself, like a breeze that goes right through us, without real effort. Paradoxically, this is both wonderful and also nothing special. The key element is the quality of our efforts. The term Gurdjieff used was conscious labor. Conscious labor is basically any intentional effort that moves to override our pervasive mode of waking sleep—where we act mechanically on autopilot. A conscious labor can be as simple as noticing something about ourselves that we don’t want to see, such as when we are impatient or judgmental. Or it could be as pleasant as appreciating our surroundings as we walk around outside, rather than being caught in our daydreams. Or it can be as courageous as when we struggle to not succumb to one of our many addictions—for food, or distractions, or whatever your own addictions are. Conscious labor is not about the external fruits of our labors, but about inner growth. The conscious struggle is between the Yes and the No—the Yes, I want to be awake, and the No, I want to resist—which leads to a kind of inner friction. Out of this friction can come an inner seeing, where our very solid sense of Me can be seen through. In other words, as we bring awareness to our tightly woven sense of self, there are moments where our Me becomes less solid, less substantial. This is where we are no longer held captive by our thoughts or moods or emotions. Once our attachment to Me is seen through—and this almost always comes about as a result of our conscious efforts—a more spacious sense of reality is available to us. Ezra Bayda Zen Center San Diegozencentersandiego.org |
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27524
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: ...Continuum... ;)
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Okay, great, thanks... ;) For me, this is a lovely illustration of how the spiritual practices of conscious breathwork, the discipline of long-sitting meditation practices (either individually or, as per this article, in retreats/groups) like vipassana, serve the conscious self-awareness process (my term for individual spiritual evolution) by loosening the mind's default/everyday focus, fed to us by the smaller-self/Me resonances of self, and opening us, bit by bit, first to flashes of the greater I reality and then continuing on into ownership of it, being able to integrate it... Learning how to be fully Present within our suffering transforms it... An everything-and-nothing attainment indeed... ;) These practices are one angle of answer to my question, what does the *experience and conscious effort*,* or conscious self-awareness process, actually translate to, consist of... For those drawn to them, they certainly do facilitate it powerfully... Any others? And there was another question there which, of course, can be addressed whenever... ;) |
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27513
From: shadow, [DNS_Address]
Subject: Re: Question for Ryan & whomever else feels to chime in...
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That's a great start, ryan, thanks... ;) Please bear w/me here... It may take awhile, but the recent exchange w/Akira around the language of symbol, and how it operates spiritually...and then your interjection of Gurdjieff's angle on this...has kinda created an opening for me to parse out how my own spiritual path/understanding resonates, and doesn't, with what he has to say... I've always sensed that our respective versions of what spiritual evolution consists of are fairly parallel...yet when his material is what you present to express your beliefs, I'm not so sure... ;) I'm hoping this dialogue will, if nothing else, help me understand how and where our realities diverge... ;) And it also holds my intention for simply sharing my own process and the understandings it operates from, for anyone else's comparison/contrast consideration with their own... ;) Did some small version of this back when ol' RIG was around, in response to his hammering...but in measuring my response to his intention, it was quite minimal... ;) Will be back early next week to continue...up to my eyeballs attempting to offer some kind of counsel/comfort to the mother of my son's stepson's girlfriend's brother, age 19, who had his head blown off a couple months ago by one of his best friends showing off with a loaded gun... This poor angel is still in hysterical nonfunctional agony three months post... ;( Thanks for your patience! |
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